MZPtv Announces Changes To Pitch/Pilot Season Process

[Andrew]

Amen Daniel!  (my two cents)  I have always thought that a rating system would be cool.  I know this all for fun and the enjoyment of writing (understandable), but just as Daniel has said...give the MZPites some credit that IF you vote on something you have read it.  I understand both sides!

[Tony O'Stark]

It's not a bad idea at all, and Adam certainly wasn't calling the populous on here stupid (I'd smack him upside the head myself if I felt he was, don't worry!).

BUT... much as it's something the admins would consider, I personally aren't sure it'd work either. It's less really for me about the popularity of the show as it is making sure the showrunner is ready. PS is all about gauging whether or not the writer can take on a season of VS as much as it is the quality of their pilot, and the masses could well vote in a show by a writer who isn't ready and could well crash and burn without those checks & balances the PS panel put in.

That's my thinking really. But as I say, it's a nice idea. And maybe there's some way we can get more input from the masses as regards future PS' in some way. All worth pondering. 

[Trix]

Nobody said it was an awful idea Daniel. Both Adam and myself gave our thoughts as to why it probably wasn't a viable option but that doesn't mean we are right or the law.

Yes you are right, I'm sure that people would read the pilots in question but it's not completely unheard of that people can get caught up in what they see in the pitch. As you will see in many pitch threads, people quickly say how much they love the sound of an idea before actually delving into the script. Yes some will then read the script and make a decision on that but that's not always the case. That's not a slight against anyone but just something that I have seen happen in the past.

I for one know that when I'm reading as a Pilot Season Judge it's much different than if I'm just reading to see what's up for submission. There would have to be rules in place to make sure that people did it right but why would that make it any better than just leaving it the way it is now?

The fact is, if everyone was getting a say then it could wind up being "too many cooks" syndrome. At the moment I think we have a very good system for Pilot Season. While things can always be improved on (and the Admins are always looking at ways to improve all areas of the board and website) I think that the Judges do a good job to weed out shows that the population of MZPtv will enjoy and that we will see make it to completion. For my money if a show is popular enough and good enough to be voted for by the MZPtv members then it will already have made it's way through under the current Pilot Season rules and Judging panel.

To say that the MZPtv public would wind up voting for a show that doesn't get picked up is actually an insult to the Judging Panel and the people that chose which members are going to be on the Judging Panel. They're not idiots either.

EDIT: to what Tony has said above.

[Adam]

To assume that the voters wouldn't have read the pilot and are just voting because a pitch is smart and flashy, is insulting to this community!

Yes, I see the pitfalls of the idea. There will be a handful of people who will vote without reading the pilot but the majority will have. Give the MZPites some credit. Were not idiots.

Calm down, dear. Nobody's calling anybody stupid. I posted the reasons why we have the system, in it's current version, and why it works. As Trix said, it's to avoid too many cooks, and as Tony's said, it's to avoid shows getting picked up where either the showrunners or the product simply isn't ready.

[Kyle West]

I think letting the "public" vote on shows would be awful, and I'm not afraid to state that opinion here. Without a doubt, it would sooner or later turn into a popularity contest. For example, Adam is a well known and liked person around here...so if you all had to vote on whether or not to pick up The Game, I don't doubt that that decision would be informed bya personal opinion of Adam rather than the quality of his script and pitch (note: I do actually think that show would be a great pick up, just making a point. Way I see it, the panel gets selected based a lot on their ability to be more impartial than most, and that's how it should stay.

Secondly, from what I've read, one of the reasons there even is a panel now is cos at one point MZP was letting everyone and their mum start a show which then either never happened or fell apart after a handful of scripts. That mustn't be lost sight of. Having this small group of 4 or 5 choosing the shows which get picked up has helped MZP develop a strong brand name...sharing that power out amongst the whole membership of the board would risk that image, and quite possibly take from what it means to get a pick up at MZP.

Going back to the original subject of the thread...can't remember if I've commented, but just want to say that I like the idea. At least now I don't have to fear KH only being able to get a straight yes or no...I've now got a middle option to hold out for

[Pete D. Gaskell]

Yeah, this isn't a case of snobbery at all. It's a case of logic and realism.

The Pilot Season Panel (which, incidentally, rotates) judges shows on a variety of factors, with quality of the pilot coming first and foremost, along with elements like potential longevity, the ability of the showrunner to not only run a show but handle a staff, and various other crucial concepts.

Most importantly, they select shows based on whether the shows are going to hopefully be a) high-quality and b) popular.

Any show that gets rejected here is rejected for a reason. That reason usually makes a lot of sense, so it would seem a bit odd for a show that was rejected by the Panel to get picked up by popular vote.

What the Panel do is a mighty tough balancing act, and the Pilot Season Panel should be commended for their efforts each and every time.

And thinking about this logically - there's 437 members of MZP-tv - you can't realistically have a Panel of 437 doing what the Panel does now. Like Trix says, it's a case of too many cooks.

[Adam]

For example, Adam is a well known and liked person around here...so if you all had to vote on whether or not to pick up The Game, I don't doubt that that decision would be informed bya personal opinion of Adam rather than the quality of his script and pitch (note: I do actually think that show would be a great pick up, just making a point. Way I see it, the panel gets selected based a lot on their ability to be more impartial than most, and that's how it should stay.

  Thanks Kyle mate, that's a nice compliment and also a really good point.

I know I for one would not want my shows picked up just because of my own standing within the community, I'd want the work to get through on it's own merits and for no other reason. The latter could very easily lead to some very sloppy writing (which I was guilty of, incidentally, with the Walker pilot - it didn't get nearly the amount of work it needed initially and I'm sure at least a small part of that was an assumption it would get picked up because of the popularity of The DSR).

[Trix]

You are very right Kyle, the site did have a lot of failed shows because people just weren't ready for the commitment that comes with running a show. I think that is something that people have lost sight of here and while it's hard to know for sure how a showrunner would get on (there are always pitfalls that can't be accounted for) I think it's fair to say that the PS judges do have a fair grasp on what goes into running a show and who would be capable of it.

That's not always the reason for why a show gets turned down and people should remember that there are a lot of areas that the Judges look at before greenlighting an idea.

I also want to make it clear that this isn't something that's really insular. Sure it's only a small number of people that judge for PS but that group changes very regularly. They are long-standing members of the board who have read a great number of scripts, have written a number of scripts and most know exactly what it takes to run a show through at least a season. Also as the judges are members of the board they see what it is that people enjoy, they see what people are hoping will get picked up in PS, that isn't ignored!

With new rules in place September will be an interesting time in seeing how PS is affected.

I'll repeat, any and all ideas will be taken on board by the Admin staff and I'm sure they will look at this as well and see if it is something that could be incorporated in any way and if it would improve things. At the moment though I'm sure they are interested in seeing how September Pilot Season turns out!

[Andrew]

My idea for ratings has nothing to do with a show being picked up.  This is "after" a show has gone through the process set up by MZP.  If a person comes here and sets out to run a show, just like they do on Tv.  They should have the episodes ready to go, so that when the air date is set...week after week...a new episode would be released, guaranteed.  Correct?  That's the way it's suppose to happen?   I'm not saying any of this to create an argument by the way.   I know that once a show is "picked up" it seems as if it takes a couple of months to years till that show is up and running.  If you have such a "high standard" to go through in getting a show picked up, what would be wrong with a rating system?  Maybe rating system is NOT the word I should be using.  Everybody gives their reviews and ratings when they review...I guess what I'm saying is that when someone reads an episode THEY would put a "Poll" on their episode topic (where everyone puts comments for that episode) and they would simply give the reader an op to rate the episode (ie...1-10).  So that when the writer looks back over their season they can see..."Oh, most people liked this one and that one"... That is what I mean when I say a "Rating System"

"I'm done"

[Kyle West]

^^ that would be a choice of the showrunner, but ultimately the poll means bugger all. Every show at VST used that system, and the info meant absolutely nothing ultimately.

[Trix]

The replies were mostly about Daniel's thoughts Andrew but I'll give my thoughts on a rating system now.

Firstly you are right that once a show is picked up it usually takes about six months to a year to get itself reading for airing. Most showrunners now like to have most episodes in hand and ready to go before even their first episode airs so that there won't be any delays in the airing schedule. There are still sometimes problems and delays but for the most part I think this system has worked well in helping keep the shows on MZPtv reliable.

I'm working on limited knowledge here so don't take what I say as gospel here Andrew but...

My knowledge of the poll system on the board is that it isn't intelligent enough to produce reliable results. Anyone can vote in a poll so what's to say that person will have read the episode. I'm not trying to call anyone idiots or say that this will happen but it is a risk. The other problem being that people may not base their rating on the episode but rather other factors that would be unfair to both the script writer and the showrunner.

Something that has been talked about in the past and that I agree with is that labelling a script with some arbitrary number doesn't give a true representation of the script. It was spoken about at length in one of the podcasts I participated in and there were some very good reasons brought up that explained why that was the case. For me it's much more helpful and interesting to hear from people about what they enjoyed and what they felt didn't work and why. Another point to think about Andrew, would be that if you were writing a script would you rather someone just gave you a mark of 4 for your first aired script or would you want to hear all about how your dialogue came across and how captivating your action was. The answer should be obvious and it's the same answer that any writer on here would give. An example being that people might mark it down for having a lot of SPAG, or maybe because the idea was flawed, or maybe because there was a major plot hole that wasn't dealt with. Without someone taking the time to explain their reasoning nobody is going to know why some nameless member scored a script the way they did.

While it might result in more people getting involved in some way, the reviewing numbers have been down across the board, I just don't see it being something that would benefit anyone.

So that when the writer looks back over their season they can see..."Oh, most people liked this one and that one"...

I just don't think those numbers would ever be reliable enough for this to actually be something worth looking at as a showrunner. Instead hearing people's thoughts would be much better for writers and showrunners.

There already exists polls for "Favourite Episodes" when people reach the end of a season so I think that covers giving a showrunner an idea about which scripts were most popular.

[Jackson]

One of the things I love about this forum is how everyone talks. If you reduce big decisions like this to any kind of large polling system it won't be feisable. As writers, we do operate with language, and those in the PS panel definitely see everyone's feedback and take on board what people say, so as a wide audience, we won't be ignored, because the higherups do listen.

However, we are a forum of writers and language. There's already a system based on that, and changing it to polls will merely create new problems.

[Daniel]

I'm not saying do away with Pilot Season, I'm not saying give all power to everyone, I'm not saying return to how it was before Pilot Season, I'm not saying every man and his dog should get a show and I'm not saying that the idea would work BUT if it was rolled out as Flux suggested, there is a strong possibility it would.

The new regulations would also still stand, they would have to produce two or three episodes to prove themselves - the decision would then be back in the laps of the committee. There are pitches that is deemed not good enough, despite a number of "audience" members disagreeing and sometimes, they deserve the chance to prove the panel wrong.

I'm sure there have been times where the panel have been divided in a decision...but if the audience also got a say, voting on the "losers" then you might find a number of people think that one panel that did deem it good enough right.

I'm not saying it would work, it would have to be tested, like every idea. But saying it's an awful idea, completely disregarding is a little...hasty, in my opinion.

[Andrew]

Thanks I understand Totally understandable and I think I agree with you (everyone that replied)...nevermind my comments

[Trix]

There are pitches that is deemed not good enough, despite a number of "audience" members disagreeing and sometimes, they deserve the chance to prove the panel wrong.

It's not about proving the panel wrong, it's about writing a good enough pilot script and being a member who can handle the commitment of writing a full season of scripts. There are lots of different things that the judges look at when making the decision of whether a show should go forward and one of those things is whether the show would be a popular addition to the board. The panel don't go in wanting to reject every script, they look at what's best to keep the board going and keep a strong number of shows airing for a number of years.

Why you seem to think that it's not clear to everyone which shows are popular and which aren't is beyond me. The panel don't ignore the opinions of everyone on the board. They just happen to be the ones that are looking indepth into the submissions of that Pilot Season.

I'm sure there have been times where the panel have been divided in a decision...but if the audience also got a say, voting on the "losers" then you might find a number of people think that one panel that did deem it good enough right.

I'm sure there have been times that the panel have been divided but that is why there are a number of people on the panel and why they have the whole month of March or September to talk about the merits of the scripts to make an informed decision.

I'd hope that anyone who has had a pilot rejected would be able to come in here and say that the reasoning that the panel gave were fair and completely true comments. When the panel reject a script it's not to spite anyone it's because they believe wholeheartedly that there is something that isn't quite up to standard at that point in time.

But saying it's an awful idea, completely disregarding is a little...hasty, in my opinion.

And again, no-one has said the idea is awful or disregarded it. People have given their thoughts as to why they believe it wouldn't work just as you have given your thoughts as to why it could.

[Trix]

Thanks I understand Totally understandable and I think I agree with you (everyone that replied)...

No problem at all Andrew. I hope my comments were helpful to you in seeing my opinion an the subject.

nevermind my comments

No not nevermind, the whole board is always interested in hearing people's ideas to improve things. More often than not one idea could lead to someone else having an epiphany that could change things for the better. That's why the Admins are open and threads like these are there for people to go back and forth. Sometimes people can't see the forest for the trees and all it needs is for one person to point out the flaw in someone's idea or the exact way to fix said flaw

No idea will be outright dismissed and any and all discussion is welcome.

[Kyle West]

I think the whole "power to the people" thing is kind of a moot point anyway. Look at the pilots currently posted up ahead of September...for the most part, the People have only done what Adam has said they do, which is just mention how much they like the concept. Very few have actually read the scripts that are up, and to say that would change if the readers knew they affected decisions is merely conjecture at this point.

A dedicated group of people who will read and respond to these scripts is the only way to fairly run a virtual pilot season, IMO. You don't see television networks letting viewers pick what pilots should be picked up for full seasons, afte all.

[Vaughn]

I think the key thing you're neglecting here Daniel is that a rejected pilot can still re-enter the next pilot season, and with the judges' blessing, too. If the writer is confident in the idea and is willing to respond to the panel's feedback positively, and if the feedback of the MZPtv populace has been generally of the thumb's up variety, then there's a good chance it'll be picked up next time around.

We don't want to degrade the writers by turning it into some sort of X-Factor style talent show competition whereby it becomes a popularity contest and a person's writing is devalued by a simple poll system. They'll succeed or fail based on their own merit, and if they're willing to work hard and respond well to feedback, they'll get picked up. If they throw a tantrum and abandon MZPtv to start their own Virtual Network every 5 minutes, just to try and show off their stuff to the 1 or 2 people that loved it originally, it will end in disaster.

[Monster Zero]

I can name several pilots that benefitted strongly from a rewrite after initial Pilot Season evaluations, that lead directly to a pickup (Walker, Dresden Files), and others that we saw submitted again six months later that made it through second time around, so I'd like to think that in that regard, the system does its job.

'Popularity' is unfortunately a very nebulous concept to try and judge, however. There's no actual way to do it - page views? Post replies? Keywords within comments? Sure, plenty of people can say they like an idea, but I know that when I'm checking over forum feedback to a pilot up for consideration (which I always do), then I know what kinds of comments I pay more attention to - the ones from people who've read it and have something to say. Even if it's a two-line 'read it, loved it/hated it' or a full breakdown and critique, any feedback from you guys is valid and factors into our decision. So I think the 'popularity' of a show can be measured in those terms, and that means if everybody who reads a pilot loves it we'll know it'll go down well, likewise if every reader hated it we'll consider that in our evaluation.

People do get distracted by good casting and shiny graphics - no harm in that, it's to be expected, but it's not an influence on the judges. That 60-page PDF in front of us does all the hard work