Author Topic: NIGHTINGALE Discussion  (Read 1367 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Pete D. Gaskell

  • Owner of a Dirty Mind and a Silver Tongue
  • Moderators
  • *
  • Posts: 3727
  • Gender: Male
  • You've got sarcasm. I've got a big gun.
  • Favourite Virtual Series: Walker, Kings Cross, Cult Hero
Re: NIGHTINGALE Discussion
« Reply #20 on: October 22, 2010, 06:46:47 PM »
^ Agree with what Adam says.

This is Tony doing what Tony does best - action-packed adventure with sexiness and fun being at the top of the agenda!

Offline TylerMoody

  • MZPtv Community Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2330
  • Gender: Male
  • The Dresden Files. 2011.
Re: NIGHTINGALE Discussion
« Reply #21 on: October 22, 2010, 08:33:54 PM »
Craps =/= blackjack.

Offline Tony O'Stark

  • Movie/Mini-Series President
  • MZPtv Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 23730
  • Gender: Male
  • Kicks ass. Takes names. Eats chicken.
  • Favourite Virtual Series: Eternity, The Company
Re: NIGHTINGALE Discussion
« Reply #22 on: October 22, 2010, 08:54:04 PM »
Yeah, I went for the technical name for it. Whoever was crazy enough to name it that, I have no idea!  :D

CREATOR/SHOWRUNNER:

The Beacon / Kings Cross

PRODUCER:

Walker

BLACK HOLE PRODUCTIONS / THE BLACK HOLE


Offline Raul Bloodworth

  • BANNED
  • MZPtv Community Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 524
  • Gender: Male
Re: NIGHTINGALE Discussion
« Reply #23 on: October 28, 2010, 02:18:55 PM »
I had no idea this had aired yet. I have to catch up on Walker so I can read it!

Offline Tony O'Stark

  • Movie/Mini-Series President
  • MZPtv Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 23730
  • Gender: Male
  • Kicks ass. Takes names. Eats chicken.
  • Favourite Virtual Series: Eternity, The Company
Re: NIGHTINGALE Discussion
« Reply #24 on: October 28, 2010, 02:48:22 PM »
^I really need to put this in my sig, I think - people I reckon have missed it!

CREATOR/SHOWRUNNER:

The Beacon / Kings Cross

PRODUCER:

Walker

BLACK HOLE PRODUCTIONS / THE BLACK HOLE


Offline Adam

  • Writer of stuff
  • Showrunner (or Moderator)
  • *
  • Posts: 5198
  • Gender: Male
  • Just an ordinary bloke who likes a bit of violence
Re: NIGHTINGALE Discussion
« Reply #25 on: October 28, 2010, 02:50:08 PM »
I had no idea this had aired yet. I have to catch up on Walker so I can read it!

Aye! Get a move on, Jakey boy!
ORIGINAL WORKS
Walker / Kings Cross / The Heretic / The Game / Dracul (with Chris Haigh) / Dominion

EXECUTIVE PRODUCER
The DSR / Star Trek: Premonition / City of Light / Operation Angry Badger / Cult Hero / Schism

CURRENTLY WRITING
WALKER Army of God, part 2 - "The Killing Floor" (6 pages)


Offline TylerMoody

  • MZPtv Community Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2330
  • Gender: Male
  • The Dresden Files. 2011.
Re: NIGHTINGALE Discussion
« Reply #26 on: November 03, 2010, 04:51:49 PM »
Furthermorington: height + fall + water landing = dead.


Offline Pete D. Gaskell

  • Owner of a Dirty Mind and a Silver Tongue
  • Moderators
  • *
  • Posts: 3727
  • Gender: Male
  • You've got sarcasm. I've got a big gun.
  • Favourite Virtual Series: Walker, Kings Cross, Cult Hero
Re: NIGHTINGALE Discussion
« Reply #27 on: November 03, 2010, 05:05:40 PM »
Funny James Bond Clip


Physical laws can be waived in action films...

Offline Tony O'Stark

  • Movie/Mini-Series President
  • MZPtv Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 23730
  • Gender: Male
  • Kicks ass. Takes names. Eats chicken.
  • Favourite Virtual Series: Eternity, The Company
Re: NIGHTINGALE Discussion
« Reply #28 on: November 03, 2010, 06:19:10 PM »
 :D

I was thinking of when Sydney Bristow did something similar in Alias, but I take your point Tyler. Let's just say Laurel is a bit bionic!

CREATOR/SHOWRUNNER:

The Beacon / Kings Cross

PRODUCER:

Walker

BLACK HOLE PRODUCTIONS / THE BLACK HOLE


Offline Pete D. Gaskell

  • Owner of a Dirty Mind and a Silver Tongue
  • Moderators
  • *
  • Posts: 3727
  • Gender: Male
  • You've got sarcasm. I've got a big gun.
  • Favourite Virtual Series: Walker, Kings Cross, Cult Hero
Re: NIGHTINGALE Discussion
« Reply #29 on: December 07, 2010, 01:52:13 PM »
As NO-ONE has reviewed this yet, allow me to get the ball rolling...

NIGHTINGALE

(click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: December 08, 2010, 06:57:20 PM by Pete D. Gaskell »

Offline reeamya

  • Castle fan girl
  • Senior Writing Staff
  • *
  • Posts: 2194
  • Gender: Female
    • The Feratu Chronicles
  • Favourite Virtual Series: Afterlife, Somewhere Inbetween
Re: NIGHTINGALE Discussion
« Reply #30 on: January 02, 2011, 09:42:54 AM »
As promised, I have finally read and reviewed Nightingale.


(click to show/hide)

Offline Tony O'Stark

  • Movie/Mini-Series President
  • MZPtv Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 23730
  • Gender: Male
  • Kicks ass. Takes names. Eats chicken.
  • Favourite Virtual Series: Eternity, The Company
Re: NIGHTINGALE Discussion
« Reply #31 on: January 02, 2011, 01:39:38 PM »
As promised, I have finally read and reviewed Nightingale.

Many thanks, Amy - this is the first review (outside Pete's, which isn't the same as he helped produce it) in over two months, so I'm extremely grateful.

Quote
PLOT

Nightingale is a rollicking, action yarn. I enjoyed the ride despite the predictable action movie/plot points I’d expect in these types of movies.

There are a few plot niggles that got my ire a bit:

For example, the teaser’s opening scam. Laurel’s scam involves tricking an older rich man, skimming his card and leaving in dramatic fashion. Why is there even a need for her to get dressed in sexy lingerie or for her  to inform her mark he should check his balance? She could simply slip into the bathroom and wait for him to pass out, skim his card and leave the hotel room normally. Then there is the whole exit by jumping out of the hotel window and landing in the pool. Sure this sequence is cool and I understand why it was done, for a great action sequence to open the movie.

But and this is a big one – it is completely illogical. First off, she’s lucky she can walk away without any injury. How deep would that pool really be? Somehow I don’t think it would be one of those Olympic high dive pool’s and hence too shallow. Casting that aside, given it’s an action movie I can shrug that off with an eh, bad action movie physics.

A more pressing question would be why wouldn’t anyone notice or report this at the pool or at the hotel?  Sure it looks cool once and you could pass it off as a performance. But as a thief, a high class thief at that wouldn’t you want to draw less attention to yourself. Especially if this is the stomping ground for running Laurel’s scam. What is she doing, just jumping out of every mark’s window at the end of proceedings? As in the teaser there was no real reason she needed to do it – no one was outside pounding on the door to get in unlike on Mr and Mrs Smith where Angelina Jolie pulled a similar stunt of leaving out the window (due to her being an assassin who just killed a guy).

I think if Laurel was just jumping out of people’s windows for the hell of it – it would start to draw a lot of attention. Especially when the marks all realize and report this to the authorities.

 :D

I only have one defence for this and its simply, as you've acknowledged, that it's a fun romp of a story. Style over logic, which I quite often don't mind for the purposes of being entertained. Crude as it sounds, guys probably are more engaged by Laurel in her knickers diving out of Vegas hotel windows than girls!

Logically, you're right. But sometimes, doing things the way they'd work in real life just isn't nearly as fun, certainly not to read.

Quote
Another niggle was the fact that Laurel and Carolynne seem to trust Archer a little too quickly. Given Carolynne’s past with him, she might be a little wary.  Especially after the incident where he leaves Laurel to be trapped and interrogated by Zakovina and her cronies. Alarm bells should have been ringing I’d thought but they still go along with the plan. It’s no surprize (at least to me anyway) when he betrays them and kills Carolynne. 

That's a fair enough point.

Carolynne does make a mistake (a fatal one) but bear in mind, after Archer abandons Laurel, Carolynne DOES have a go at him. Also, the Ravenwood's think they're indestructable and that was part of the story here, for Laurel, to make her realise they may be legendary thieves but they're not to underestimate people. Laurel never fully trusts Archer but the lure of money makes her go along with it - certainly part of the story is how big a mistake they DO make

Quote
Reynolds and Laurel suffering no serious or real injuries (aside from being tired and sore) after bailing out of a crashing plane with no parachutes stretches suspension of disbelief to breaking point. Especially given how they’re regular humans and they hit land not water. 

Again, I call upon the dramatic licence/cool shit-over logic defence.  :D

Quote
The last niggle and perhaps the most damning is how Reynolds conveniently knows the location they need to go to at a critical point in the movie. Because his boss Zakovina  who doesn’t believe in any of this Water of life stuff just happened to look into it and tell him/overhear. 

The way I see it, while she wouldn't have been interested, she'd have done her research - and Reynolds was a trusted advisor which, admittedly, didn't come across nearly as it should have done.

Quote
DIALOGUE

The dialogue for the most part is naturalistic as you’d expect from an experienced writer like Tony. However there are times when the characters talk about things it would appear for the readers benefit. I suppose this probably stems from the fact that this is written so that people (like myself) who haven’t read anything can follow along. For example page 13 where Laurel and her mum speak, most of their conversation seems to fall within the telling us for the readers benefit. 

You have to do that at times in any script - I defy any writer to tell this kind of story without it. I'd rather a reader know what's going on than be confused and therefore not be engaged in the story.

Lets put it this way - if I'd have written this just assuming everyone has seen all Laurel's preceeding appearances in Walker, you'd have been twice as mad and I wouldn't blame you.

Quote
ACTION/DESCRIPTIONS

As an action script this is an integral part. And as expected I wasn’t let down. The fights are well paced and tense. The action sequences are memorable and vividly described. The Land of Darkness is a favourite of mine, especially the sequence where Laurel and Archer travel into it to retrieve the Water of Life. It had a very Indiana Jones feel to it. Then when Archer drinks the water and is eaten up with disease, as is the landscape and the ancient Persian soldiers. The whole sequence involving this was very memorable and cool.

It's shamessly knicked from Indy, really, but hell EVERYONE should steal from Indy!  :D

Quote
CHARACTERS

All the characters are fleshed out enough to easily distinguish them and leave an impression. The only concern I have is with Laurel’s character arc. She is established as a high class thief who is grappling with fall out of betraying someone she loved for money. Bored and questioning her direction in life. Laurel realizes that perhaps this life isn’t all she wants. Especially given her admission that she gave back all the money she stole from all those marks in the casino/hotel earlier.

In the climax, this change of heart is highlighted by her discussion with Archer on page 93.

ARCHER(frowns)
Stop being so righteous! You’re a thief, motivated purely by self interest…just like me.

LAUREL (shakes her head)
Not like you. If I was, I wouldn’t be trying to save Reynolds.

Yet at the end Laurel seems to be back to her old tricks and doesn’t seem bothered by her previous epiphany and her dissatisfaction with her life. Is this meant to be tragic? That she can’t escape this life I’m not sure as she seems to be at peace with her identity the Nightingale.  Seems a little bit like she’s reverting back to status quo for some reason which is a shame . I would have liked to have seen some solid character progression in that the person she was at the beginning of the movie is different to the person who she is at the end.

I didn't want Laurel to suddenly give it all up, because that just didn't feel real to me.

Yes, she's lost her mother. Yes, she knows the truth about her father. Yes, for the first time, she acted selflessly in stopping Archer, but this story is about her realising that while she's the Nightingale, she doesn't have to be the woman her mother was OR the woman she's been (seeing Walker here, admittedly, gives you an extra leg up on this) before. She IS different at the end. I dressed her in white as a symbolic representation of that at the end, as opposed to black at the start. Archer (nor maybe Carolynne) would have gone to the lengths Laurel does here to save Reynolds or stop Archer, that was the point.

Maybe this didn't come across as I hoped, and that's a shame.

Quote
Overall though, a solid and enjoyable action script.

3.5 stars out of 5.

I'll take that - thanks again!  thup

CREATOR/SHOWRUNNER:

The Beacon / Kings Cross

PRODUCER:

Walker

BLACK HOLE PRODUCTIONS / THE BLACK HOLE


Offline reeamya

  • Castle fan girl
  • Senior Writing Staff
  • *
  • Posts: 2194
  • Gender: Female
    • The Feratu Chronicles
  • Favourite Virtual Series: Afterlife, Somewhere Inbetween
Re: NIGHTINGALE Discussion
« Reply #32 on: January 02, 2011, 04:47:40 PM »
Glad to give you some feedback on this Tony. I'm quite familiar with the rule of cool trumps logic argument as a scientist who loves sci fi and action movies. Given your responses suggest what I initially suspected myself (ie that if I read the Walker episodes I'd pick up on the extra subtleties) I'm curious to see how my opinion of this will be after I get around to reading Walker (it's on my kindle to read list).

Offline Adam

  • Writer of stuff
  • Showrunner (or Moderator)
  • *
  • Posts: 5198
  • Gender: Male
  • Just an ordinary bloke who likes a bit of violence
Re: NIGHTINGALE Discussion
« Reply #33 on: January 02, 2011, 04:51:14 PM »
I'm curious to see how my opinion of this will be after I get around to reading Walker (it's on my kindle to read list).

That's just made my day.
ORIGINAL WORKS
Walker / Kings Cross / The Heretic / The Game / Dracul (with Chris Haigh) / Dominion

EXECUTIVE PRODUCER
The DSR / Star Trek: Premonition / City of Light / Operation Angry Badger / Cult Hero / Schism

CURRENTLY WRITING
WALKER Army of God, part 2 - "The Killing Floor" (6 pages)


Offline Tony O'Stark

  • Movie/Mini-Series President
  • MZPtv Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 23730
  • Gender: Male
  • Kicks ass. Takes names. Eats chicken.
  • Favourite Virtual Series: Eternity, The Company
Re: NIGHTINGALE Discussion
« Reply #34 on: January 02, 2011, 05:09:32 PM »
Glad to give you some feedback on this Tony. I'm quite familiar with the rule of cool trumps logic argument as a scientist who loves sci fi and action movies. Given your responses suggest what I initially suspected myself (ie that if I read the Walker episodes I'd pick up on the extra subtleties) I'm curious to see how my opinion of this will be after I get around to reading Walker (it's on my kindle to read list).

I forget you're a scientist - of COURSE you're gonna pick holes in this kind of thing!  :D It's fine, because as I say you're technically right.

Great to hear Walker is on the Kindle. So indeed, on mine, is The Feratu Chronicles - I will get to it.  thup

CREATOR/SHOWRUNNER:

The Beacon / Kings Cross

PRODUCER:

Walker

BLACK HOLE PRODUCTIONS / THE BLACK HOLE


Offline Monster Zero

  • Bald Asshole
  • King of Monsters
  • *
  • Posts: 29382
  • Gender: Male
  • an easy mark for evil redheads
    • MZPtv
  • Favourite Virtual Series: The Company, Walker, Malleus Maleficarum
Re: NIGHTINGALE Discussion
« Reply #35 on: January 13, 2011, 07:06:51 PM »
Laurel’s a striking character – somewhere in between the Lara Croft and Selina Kyle of the Aliasverse – and the close relationship she still enjoys with her mother makes her something of a rarity, given the ‘verse’s predilection towards dysfunctional and broken families, professional or relative. Points for referencing events from Walker without us having to actually have read them, even if the ‘just one last score’ motif spells trouble a mile away!
 
The cons on display are a little mismatched – Carolynne’s coughing trick is a painfully obvious one, but the rapid doublecross that follows is the kind of thing we like. Good con stories throw the unexpected at us, whether the characters are several steps ahead all along or not (as in any episode of Leverage). But Laurel talking to Carolynne whilst still standing right in front of Reynolds, no matter how whispered, is a bit clunky, and Tony still needs to work on his quips – ‘too much vodka’? Roger Moore could have gotten away with that, maybe! And wouldn’t it get confusing if both Laurel and Carolynne are using the codename ‘Nightingale’ for each other?
 
The scenes at the casino pop well enough, with Archer’s betrayal, Reynolds’ double agent-ism and Carolynne’s murder all strong steps along the path of PLOT. However, the more we veer off into Tomb Raider territory with Archer’s quest in the desert, the less this feels like anything other than a DSR offshoot – I know the MZP Aliasverse is all about this kind of contrast, the myths of old colliding with cutting edge spy-fi, but I can’t help but think Laurel would have been more striking with a story crafted around her own world. You could swap her out in this with anybody from Project Black Hole and things wouldn’t feel any different. It’s like the character’s leaning more towards a Selina Kyle meets Sydney Bristow vibe, but the plot’s trying to haul her back towards Croft Manor and she’s not fitting in as a result.
 
The jet fighter dogfight is proper Video Game Logic – single-seater jets tends not to have a secondary gunner like an old WWI biplane, making the whole thing feel like I should be reading this while shaking a PS3 controller around. I wouldn’t be at all surprised if Just Cause 2 and Uncharted 2 were influences on this, and the leap from the exploding plane and improbable ‘fall to the ground and not spatter to mush’ is straight out of Quantum of Solace too.
 
The scenes at the camp are where this really starts to lurch further into Indiana Jones Land, with the promise to heal the injured Reynolds very much a lift from both The Last Crusade and even the first Tomb Raider movie – when Archer takes the old cup from his backpack, drinks and then dies moments later, I was half expecting him to casually remark it was the Holy Grail! It’s a shame – his early statement of using the Waters to transform arid desert into fertile land was an unusual plan, one a villain such as he could easily have turned to unimaginable profit, so to see him fall back on the old immortality gambit is rather disappointing. That, and the fact the whole thing gets wrapped up in two pages flat makes this all feel tragically anti-climactic. Plus – and this is probably just me – I got a real Zip-A-Dee-Doo-Dah vibe from the valley springing to life when that bird showed up…
 
There are things to like here – rugged antihero Reynolds doesn’t get a lot to do but he’s a good foil for her, Carolynne is a fabulous character with just the right twinkle in her eyes, and the barking Zakovina is a memorable if slightly too OTT villainess. The other main issue, apart from the muddled focus for what Laurel is supposed to be as a character, is that she’s a victim of circumstance throughout this. She rarely gets to take any kind of initiative in events, and for someone so versed in the art of the con it would have been nicer to see her have a plan to outfox the antagonists gradually reveal itself rather than see her bounce from reaction to reaction.
 
Lively and entertaining, but unfortunately not as smart as it needed to be. Rather than the ‘enthusiasm over logic’ approach favoured by Alias (and, arguably, The DSR), this needed to be a degree more intelligent – mind games, shifting loyalties, improvisation, and most importantly the characters always being several steps ahead of the audience, without us ever twigging they know what they’re doing until the right moment. That’s what makes a good con story – this was just an extended DSR episode with more focus on nicking stuff, and as such doesn’t have enough of its own identity despite the strong central characters. You’re pushing Laurel to be Lara Croft, but that doesn’t feel like what she’s supposed to be. She’d be more at home somewhere around Sophie and Parker from Leverage blended together – more Selina Kyle, really. She even has her own Bruce Wayne in the form of Alec Walker, after all! So an unfocused identity and a very predictable story give a great central character very little room to shine – disappointing, I’m afraid.
 
Currently Writing:
SOON

Offline Tony O'Stark

  • Movie/Mini-Series President
  • MZPtv Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 23730
  • Gender: Male
  • Kicks ass. Takes names. Eats chicken.
  • Favourite Virtual Series: Eternity, The Company
Re: NIGHTINGALE Discussion
« Reply #36 on: January 13, 2011, 09:38:00 PM »
We talked a little about this over text today, so let me respond to a few things here.

First off, all the script/logic niggles are completely fair play - not one I can really contest, to be honest. In terms of quips, I think it all comes down to your quality threshold - you have a very specific way you write quippery, I come at it different, so as with most dialogue that's a subjective thing.

Tone wise, I do agree that this kind of story isn't the way to take Laurel fully in the future, and we're not going to. I had an absolute blast writing this script and I don't regret one page at all, but once I'd done it I said to the guys Backstage that I want Laurel to move back more into the spy-fi realm for whatever we do with her next, as opposed to the more Indy-style supernatural McGuffin that's played here. She would fit better in that kind of world so when you see Laurel again (and we'll be putting information out there in the not-too-distant about what we have planned), that'll be the case.

Like I say though, totally enjoyed the writing experience. Not my best work, I know that myself, but damn fun and I'm proud of a fair few bits of it.

Cheers for reading, gaffer.  thup

CREATOR/SHOWRUNNER:

The Beacon / Kings Cross

PRODUCER:

Walker

BLACK HOLE PRODUCTIONS / THE BLACK HOLE


Offline Monster Zero

  • Bald Asshole
  • King of Monsters
  • *
  • Posts: 29382
  • Gender: Male
  • an easy mark for evil redheads
    • MZPtv
  • Favourite Virtual Series: The Company, Walker, Malleus Maleficarum
Re: NIGHTINGALE Discussion
« Reply #37 on: January 13, 2011, 10:46:56 PM »
It won me over enough to make me certain that helping out in future Laurel stories is A Good Thing, so that's something :)
Currently Writing:
SOON

Offline Tony O'Stark

  • Movie/Mini-Series President
  • MZPtv Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 23730
  • Gender: Male
  • Kicks ass. Takes names. Eats chicken.
  • Favourite Virtual Series: Eternity, The Company
Re: NIGHTINGALE Discussion
« Reply #38 on: January 13, 2011, 10:53:43 PM »
Yes, I can't get rid of the bald fucker now!  :D

CREATOR/SHOWRUNNER:

The Beacon / Kings Cross

PRODUCER:

Walker

BLACK HOLE PRODUCTIONS / THE BLACK HOLE


Offline Dino

  • The Original Ninja Reviewer
  • Senior Writing Staff
  • *
  • Posts: 8589
  • Gender: Male
  • Why Are You Afraid Of The Dark?
  • Favourite Virtual Series: Shackles, Afterlife
Re: NIGHTINGALE Discussion
« Reply #39 on: May 07, 2012, 11:46:57 PM »
Coming late to the party, and the fact I read this... oh a couple of weeks ago, I failed to post my review!

So this one will be a micro review of what I still remember.

Nightingale: certainly smacks of Tony Black's writing to a tee. It has the flashy action sequences one can expect after a steady diet of DSR scripts and the movie definitely suits that style.

Taylor Cole can be dressed in a Hessian bag for all I care and she'll still be gorgeous. The mother/daughter relationship is a tight one and dialogue between the two really works.

The story, although good, just really didn't do it for me. It reminded me too much of Lara Croft (I suspect this plot was going to be your Tomb Raider movie that you were going to do, but for some reason, never got around to doing.)

I'd have much preferred a straight heist story rather than the fancy water of life one, but that's just me.

As for the other characters: Reynolds played wonderfully be Curran did come across as both Laurel ally and enemy in both the same instance. Archer on the other hand I visualised as someone much older. For some reason, this was the case, and after seeing the credits at the end (I didn't look up the cast prior to reading) I wouldn't have suspected Tom Selleck, to play such a bad guy.

Aside from the plot - which was still enjoyable to read, I didn't really fancy it all that much. The characterisations were spot on, and I have a feeling Nightingale will pop up somewhere along the line - or she might just get her own series... ;)